P11 and others

[p400]

I went to jampot.dk, found ipb, cropped and revised for P11.
The pieces I have in question are the cup 010808 and double helix spring 000195.
What is the exact orientation?
the cup 010808 was facing up on my initial take apart, then the double spring, then keyed washer 000162, then knob last. Maybe the purpose of the cupped washer is to give the double helix a flat surface?

[500tg3lc]

What is the exact orientation? - "please"

What makes you think it isn't as shown in the parts illustration?

[BillTS3]

Exactly...The Norton engine in a Matchless motorcycle...... The G50 and the 7R were both designed and made by the Matchless factory....When Norton moved to Plumstead they started to make bikes that were neither Matchless or Norton

I've read that the Norton move from Birmingham was not voluntary, and the culture clash was rough on both sides.

AMC were losing money, and the G15/45 and G85 were not big sellers for different reasons. I believe fitting the Atlas engine into these two models saved AMC from bankruptcy for a few more years. There were about 5000 machines sold under three brand names in 8 or so variants based on the G15/45 chassis, and 2500 P11s sold as both Matchless and Norton.

and lets not forget (or perhaps we should!) the ES2 MkII bit of badge engineering.

The English motorcycle industry was collapsing throughout the '60s - more affordable small cars, cheap imported bikes from Europe and Japan, heavy reliance on exports of big bikes to the US, mismanagement, labor issues - all played a part in this end of an era.

We had our collapse decades before. Motorcycles were not relied on for transportation after WWI, mainly due to the distances we travel here, $290 Model T Fords, and pennies-a-gallon gas. Excelsior did not survive the Great Depression, and Indian never really recovered from WWII. Harley-Davidson survived solely due to their sales to police and military, and they nearly disappeared 35 years ago due to mismanagement by their then-parent company, AMF.

As long as we're hijacking, we may as well go to Havana!

[242017]

All this is general Knowledge.....What does not seem to be general knowledge is that the P11 derives from the Matchless G85cs.....

A great bit of salesmanship I reckon as the states got 100 bikes that they didnt know what to do with.....Motocross came a few years later

[500tg3lc]

"What does not seem to be general knowledge is that the P11 derives from the Matchless G85cs....." - perhaps it isn't also general knowledge that the G85 derives from the Metisse or that the G85 was a prototype for the P11...................that step by step led to the Commando.

[242017]

The G85 looks Nothing like a Metisse and does not derive from the Metisse...look at the photos.....The G85cs was a scrambles bike in its own right in 1963/64....its not a prototype for a bodge......
The commando is a road bike....and has nothing to do with a G 85cs

And did the Metisse derive from the Cheney ???

[BillTS3]

I think the point is the G85 was a tried-and-true combination of a known engine and forks in a new, lightweight frame and swingarm. The similarities between this frame and a Rickman are mainly due to their purpose. It also looked great.

The P11 was a way to make an obsolete combination relevant again. Desert racing and hare-and-hound scrambles were very popular here in the '60s, and the P11 was a potent competitor.
It was also very successful in a unique American sport - drag racing.

The P11 Ranger happened to be a beautiful, well-handling, and fast machine. The proportions seem right, the color was well-suited to the bike, and those upswept, reverse-cone silencers were the perfect finishing touch. This was not a true scrambler, but rather a 'street' scrambler - a bike with some off-road capabilities, but more suited to an urban environment, where it could work through city traffic with ease, using its torquey motor and great chassis.

The design elements of the Ranger are seen in the Commando Roadster - the general proportions, the small tank, the upswept, reverse-cone silencers, and the triangular side covers which mimic the P11 oil tank. The Commando would never be a scrambler, but it paid homage to those great bikes that came before.

[p400]

just a followup drawing to include all the damper pieces.
I agree the cupped washer probably face down as shown on drawing.
please note anchor plate 017008 is shown upside down.
Not shown yet are the 1/2 long 1/4CEI hex bolts, split lock and flat washers holding the anchor plates.

[242017]

I agree with you Bill on your last comments

[500tg3lc]

"And did the Metisse derive from the Cheney ???" - and did the Metisse etc.derive from the 1954 BSA s/a frame??? - and how much lighter was the P11 than the early Commando, as the Commando frame was lighter? - while The high pipe p11 looks the part, the later low pipe model is just another bike IMO - while the high pipe Commando 68/69? with pipes on either side and small tank (quite rare) also looked the part again IMO.