P11 and others

[BillTS3]

The bike you're talking about is the 750SS - only made in 1971, and did not sell. Too heavy, too big a turning circle and not enough ground clearance to be a scrambler, and too ugly to be a street scrambler. The 'S' model of 1970 was much more popular and looks the business, especially with Clint Eastwood on it.

Many 750SS were converted to other models at the dealer (just a matter of changing a handful of bolt-on parts). Most were converted to Hi-Riders, as they were quite popular at the time and used the small tank.


P11A


1970 750S


1971 750SS


1971 Hi-Rider

[242017]

Yes Martin most of the scrambles bikes used the Bsa twin downtube frame in the fifties.....Eric Cheney told me that they didnt dare change any of the frames or make new ones in the fifties as they travelled all over Europe for months at an end and couldnt risk any problems with them

[500tg3lc]

Billts3 - the picture you show of Clint Eastwood is correctly captioned he is on a P11 - I also have this picture.

[500tg3lc]

Geoffrey (242017) you seem to know a lot of this stuff - I would be interested to know more about the evolution of the G85/P11 frame - I know AMC went to Reynolds and asked them to produce a more modern frame, and the g85 was the outcome, but what guidence did they provide, with the heavy cast headstock, was this to avoid the front down tubes cracking as can happen with the Mettise (but lower down) - but then the G80cs frames (also with a heavy cast headstock) this also cracks but higher up - also why the longer 57" wheelbase, a bit longer than the 56" Mettise and the same as the Commando, suggesting they had more of a road set up in mind - how does it compare with the wheelbase of your Cheney (you say you prefer) does that have a shorter wheelbase, so turns into corners quicker? - I remember Kevin Read riding one of these, so quick, and so many different lines round the same course. - is the T Twin quicker than the matchless single - the twin should be quicker out of the corners but the single should get more grip - I suppose it depends on the course and dry or wet - I remember Mike Andrews (as an old man) going feet up quicker than anyone on a James Holland Matchless on a very muddy day - I would think the P11 (never to be published?) book man would be interested in the G85/P11 frame stuff.

[BillTS3]

Billts3 - the picture you show of Clint Eastwood is correctly captioned he is on a P11 - I also have this picture.

I assumed the bike pictured above was the same bike as pictured below, which is clearly a P11A, with the dual seat, 68-style tail light housing and chain guard. Did P11s have the side reflectors in the UK? They weren't required in the US until 1968 (part of a massive piece of legislation effecting motor vehicles sold in the US from 1 January, 1968, which also ended the importation of many small European cars).

[242017]

Martin.....I will try and answer your questions about the G85cs frame.....It was designed and the very first made by Vic Eastwood and john McClaren in the comp shop in around 63.....The frame was of Reynolds 531 tube but have no knowledge of the Reynolds factory making them....I " assumed " with the wealth of competant tradesmen at the factory that this could be done at the factory.....The sif bronze welding on the G 85 frame is not as "pretty" as on a later Pat French MRD Metisse.....so suggests the Matchless factory. The normal road bike twin downtube cast headstock cut and formed to spread the load on the downtubes to prevent cracking..... (One of mine has cracked).....I think was a case of " what can we use" and "what have we got".....it produced though two things.....a bit of a wrong angle for getting round corners...but a very stable straight line bike....Handy a few years later in the states.

All Metisse crack their frames under the petrol tank where the cross piece is added.....The Matchless single downtube frames crack and break under the headstock....the Matchless twin downtube frame normaly dont brake.....but weigh a ton.....The reason I was told that Matchless changed to the twin downtube frame was of complaints from the Army as all the frames were breaking in Cyprus and not because of any other reason

The longer the Rear Swinging arm the more stable the bike is in a straight line....A Bsa Victor "twitches" in a straight line.Both G85cs and Metisse have shorter swinging arms than the Cheney
The fork angle decides the ability to corner....the sharper the angle the better it turns into a corner.....
The head angle (trail) on my Cheney is about 25 Deg.
The G85 cs is a lot more....hence its tendance to want to "oversteer" in a corner.....but sits solid in a straight line

The Triumph twin in 500 form is no quicker than the Matchless 500 single....but the single always handled better in the mud...
But its a lot to do with the rider......Mick Andrews told me one day when we were racing that he had a Matchless G85cs that had been from one of the factory riders....but when the factory was going into financial problems his Dad has said that he should give it back.as the factory always had treated hin well...Mick was and is as good a scrambles rider as he still is at trials...
I wonder what happened to his bike ?

[500tg3lc]

Thanks for that Geoffrey - I remember reading somewhere that Renolds made or were involved with the G85 and P11 and early Commando frames, before AMC or was it just Norton by then getting the Commando frames made in Italy cheaper, but that may or may not be completely true of course, history so often gets rewritten by people who weren't there, get confused and/or who make things up to sell something, this is why its important to get the factual stuff together before everyone who was involved fizzles out - Yes Mike Andrews a great bloke, and all round rider, he came over to me on one occasion and said of my Trials G3lC that's just like the bike my Dad bought for me, but after I got a works ride the factory always gave me an AJS.

[500tg3lc]

Bill - not many p11s sold in the UK, so not sure about the side reflectors but I would have expected the UK bikes to have had them, however picture of Clint Eastwood with the girl on the back was either a promotion or other such do, as the bike has no registration number - so ??????????????.

[BillTS3]

Martin, I surmised that the photo of Eastwood with the pillion candy was a pre-registration publicity shot and the photo in front of Big Ben was a later publicity shot. I assumed the two bikes were one in the same as both look to be P11A specification, they weren't widely available in the UK, and Clint Eastwood is said to have owned a P11A, and took delivery of it in the UK.

Period US ads can't be relied on to show the proper specification, as you can see from the following:


This illustration is the original P11 advert with the airbrushed battery cover. This cover never existed.


This ad is for the N15CS and P11A, but the photo is of a P11 - high-pipe, solo seat, 67 tail light, no reflectors, no chain guard. This ad was also run for the G15CS and P11A. Same format and copy, save for tank badges and 'Matchless' inserted in place of 'Norton'. I don't have a good copy of the Matchless advert, but there is a scan of it in Christian's archives


This is a Ranger ad, but the bike is a P11A


This is a side view of a Ranger from the 'Color Me Fun' brochure. Probably the only P11 ad where the bike in the picture matched the model in the ad copy.

[John Donne]

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