P11 and others

Information relating to the Matchless G85 500cc Heavyweight, AJS 7R, Matchless G45 and Matchless G50
Locked
biggles
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 1996 12:00 am
Location: BERKSHIRE UK

P11 and others

Post by biggles »

Can anyone please provide a comprehensive list of the frame numbers for the P11, P11A and Ranger and any other variants. Where can I find a detailed description of the changes to each model. I am thinking of buying a P11 and do not want to find that I have bought a pile of ....... Thanks John
User avatar
Rob Harknett
Member
Posts: 11236
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 1990 12:00 am
Location: ESSEX UK

Re: P11 and others

Post by Rob Harknett »

There's no section here for Norton. You will need a starting point or changes will mean nothing, The P11 starting point is, introduced Dec. 1966 ( guess that's 1967 model ) 745cc, Atlas engine, 4 speed, Matchless G85CS scrambler frame, in road trim, fitted with lights and silencers 2 1/4 gal. tank, 7" brakes, Lucas 12v capacitor ignition. Nov 1967 ( guess that's 1968 model ) P11A introduced. Simular to P11, but with low level exhausts. Sept 1968 ( guess that is 1969 model)
P11A now called Ranger, ribbed hubs, steel guards, modified seat mounting. Nov. 1968 P11A Ranger discontinued.
The dating officer will date frame and engine numbers, which I believe were indentical. If not identical both should fall within the number series for the year. But the way I read it, a bike had the same frame and engine number.
User avatar
Colin F
Member
Posts: 936
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 1990 12:00 am
Location: NORWICH UK
Contact:

Re: P11 and others

Post by Colin F »

We have a P11 guru on here, lives in South London who's name escapes me at the moment :oops: (Tony)

I'm sure he will pop up when he sees this post and will probably answer any questions you have, even down to quoting part numbers of the changes on these bikes. :beer:
charlski
Member
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: NORTHAMPTONSHIRE UK

Re: P11 and others

Post by charlski »

Biggles


Why dont you post up the frame number / engine number (should be matching) or / and a photo of the P11 you are planning on buying John Donne (anthony curzon) on here is the expert ... but i have 2 and have a pretty good idea of whats legit and not ..... there are some details of "hybrid" frame numbers on the internet ... but dont take them for granted ... my 2nd P11 according to the details posted on line was a P11A .. but stangely the bike was fitted without key tab by the battery box, with seat prongs on the frame and a loop on the rear frame to take a single seat, and a headlight with the warning light behind the ammeter not to the side of it ... when Anthony checked the records sure as this bike was a high pipe P11 and not a P11A. Lucky for me as i picked it up cheaper as the previous owner in the states had read the hybrid article and sold it as a P11A not a high pipe P11 at a considerable discounted price thinking it wasnt one of the original 500 high piped bikes

KC
biggles
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 1996 12:00 am
Location: BERKSHIRE UK

Re: P11 and others

Post by biggles »

Thanks all for the responses. I have not identified a bike yet because I thought it would be wise to learn as much about them before I go and look at one so that I know what I am seeing. I have spoken to 2 people in the last week who have bought what they thought were WD G3L's only to find out they are later bikes painted green. I would rather spend some time researching rather than be wise after the event. Many thanks.
charlski
Member
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: NORTHAMPTONSHIRE UK

Re: P11 and others

Post by charlski »

Biggles

You wont see many of them advertised as not many around ..... but i would find one then post some pics frame numbers etc, P11 are pretty hard to mix up with any other bike as the frame is unique to only the P11 and the G85CS ... so i would either get yourself down to the motorcycle museum in birmingham where there are 3 P11 variants (one P11 and 2 P11a's) with a camera and familiarise yourself ....and if someone is trying to sell you a G85cs as a P11 you will be quids in anyway !!

Main differences and im sure anthony will list a million more are :-

P11 single seat with 2 prongs on the frame to fix it to with a welded loop between the top 2 frame rails to butt it up against, oil tank with filler directly at the front corner and bolted direct to frame, ignition key situated between the 2 coils, capacitors on the points and not between the coils, headlamp warning lamp behind the ammeter not to the side of it, low cross bar on handlebars, battery box with just 2 mounting points, no chainguard or chainguard mounting points on the swingarm, high pipes, large flat steel rear number plate holder, ribs machined off hubs, larger petrol tank than the p11a (cant remember how many gallons) pinstriping on tank in silver, badges screwed on bulge either side of tank (either matchless or norton badges) rear mudguard mount has 3 tabs and no loop built into it, aluminium mudguards ... early P11's had scrambles innards in forks

P11A smaller tank with no pinstriping, but still with screw on badges, low level pipes with removable baffles, tab welded on frame next to battery box for ignition key, tabs welded on swing arm for chainguard mounting, chain guard, capacitors mounted between coils, battery box with 3 mounting points, oil tank with filler spout slightly forward of the P11's and mounted to the frame with clamps isolated with rubber and not direct, bars with high cross bar, warning lamp in headlight shell mounted to left of ammeter, double seat not single, no loop or prongs on frame to mount seat to, rear mudguard mount has two tabs at the back and a loop built into it, unique rear light cast in aluminium, aluminium mudguards fins on hubs machined off ...

P11 Ranger ... bit sketchy on this one ... but i believe its fins on hub, no badges on tank instead painted on Norton logo and gold pinstriping, different double seat to P11A, stainless mudguards

What i have also come to learn is that some later P11's had the P11A oil tanks and headlight shells fitted.

As i said Anthony im sure will double this list but this is how i see it.

You should join the Yahoo P11 group .. lots of detail and photos

And also you will probably find it cheaper to import one from the U.S. than buy in the UK

Cheers

KC
BillTS3
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:14 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: P11 and others

Post by BillTS3 »

Biggles

The Ranger was built after the introduction of the Commando. One batch of machines from 128646 to 129145, all built in Sept-Oct 1968.

The P11 series totaled about 2500 machines

P11 - 1st 121007, last 123012. 4 batches made, totaling about 700. I've seen these with or without badges in the tank
P11A - 1st 124372, last 126123. 3 batches made, totaling about 1300. These were badged as either Matchless or Norton.
P11A Ranger 750 - 1st 128646 last 129145. 1 batch made, totaling 496. (the 496 number is from Leo Goff). All carried 'Norton' tank decals.

Mixed in with these machines were the Atlas, Atlas Scrambler (N15), Matchless G15 variants, AJS 33 variants, the 650SS and the Commando (pre-production and the 1968 regular production). I think everything between the P11A and Ranger were Commandos, about 2500, but there could be a couple of small batches of other models mixed in. The Mercury model was run just after the Ranger, with their numbers all in the balance of the 129xxx batch of serials. This adds credence to the story that Norton-Villiers were clearing out stocks at Plumstead prior to closing that factory down.

One of the items on the Ranger that is interesting is that they used the Commando head casting, drilled for top-oiling rather than side-oiling. A close-up view of a Ranger head will show the boss between the rocker shaft covers that would have been drilled and tapped for the oil line
Image

Rangers also have the brake switch in the front cable - something the earlier bikes did not have.
charlski
Member
Posts: 186
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:45 pm
Location: NORTHAMPTONSHIRE UK

Re: P11 and others

Post by charlski »

That list of frame numbers taken off the internet is not actually correct ... there were quite a few batches of high pipe P11's produced and shipped after 124372 you need to check frame numbers
against actual factory records to get this correct.

KC
User avatar
John Donne
Posts: 303
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 12:00 am
Location: SURREY UK

Re: P11 and others

Post by John Donne »

?
Last edited by John Donne on Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bunners
Member
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:24 pm
Location: HAMPSHIRE UK

Re: P11 and others

Post by bunners »

I know where there is one, the guy wants £2700, whether it is complete or not I don't know. its an import from the US of A. actually come to think of it he has got two, I forgot the one on work bench number 4, that has been there a long time.
If there is life after Death whats the point of dying in the first place.
Locked