Intro and what have I got

Information relating to the Matchless G3 or AJS Model 16 350cc Heavyweight
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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby Pharisee » Thu May 18, 2017 8:17 pm

George Kaplan wrote:Thanks guys, I will sell the WD cases. They need to go into a WD bike, with any luck someone out there needs a set.

I will see where I end up with the 53 cases once I weld them. I am thinking of building them into a G3C with alloy top end, assuming I can work out where to get an alloy barrel without having to get a second mortgage. I will leave the 350/500 AJS as it is and see what its like, I have been told that a 350 with a 500 top end is a good combination. We shall see.

John


I had the same thought about the G3 basket case I'm re-building. I have it on good authority that you can't use a competition alloy barrel on a standard crank case. The long studs that go through the alloy barrel are on different centres to the short studs that secure the iron barrel.

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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby George Kaplan » Thu May 18, 2017 8:32 pm

Pharisee wrote:I had the same thought about the G3 basket case I'm re-building. I have it on good authority that you can't use a competition alloy barrel on a standard crank case. The long studs that go through the alloy barrel are on different centres to the short studs that secure the iron barrel.


Thanks for that piece of information Pharisee, the cases that I have are stamped G3L 1415C. Now I have no idea if this makes them G3C cases (I wouldn’t have thought the "C" should be at the end although i am no expert). However if the stud spacing is different on the competition engines then that will be a good indicator of what I have. I have an iron 350 barrel so I can offer it up to the cases and see if they line up or not, if not then they are just standard G3 cases with a C in the number.

John

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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby dave16mct » Thu May 18, 2017 8:51 pm

Have a look at the 53 sales brochure here:
http://archives.jampot.dk/promotional/S ... _color.pdf


page 9. The engine number looks ok to me.

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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby George Kaplan » Sat May 20, 2017 12:45 pm

Thanks for all the feedback folks. Thanks Dave for the link to the brochure. The information regarding the stud holes was helpful.

I offered the 350 iron barrel up to the "C" crankcases and the first thing I noticed was that the crankcase mouth is very slightly too small to accept the bottom section of the cylinder.

So I measured a like for like pair of stud holes in both the crankcase and the cylinder. Until things are cleaned up properly its hard to get a dead accurate measurement but the centres of the holes that I measured were in the region of 0.085" different. Certainly too far away from each other to be measurement error from me (I used vernier calipers). The crankcases had the larger centre to centre dimensions which seems logical.

Image

So despite my scepticism it might seem that the cases are what they were advertised as. When I get to starting this project I will have to see if I can procure the appropriate top end.

John

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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby George Kaplan » Sat May 20, 2017 12:54 pm

Post Script. As I was typing the above post it occurred to me that I also have the WD cases and these cases still have he studs in them. I offered the barrel up to those and the bottom of the cylinder was still too big to fit in the crankcases however the studs and cylinder base holes aligned up perfectly. I then took the WD cases and offered the studs up to the holes in the "C" cases and they are definitely different, the "C" holes centres are approx 1/4 of a diameter of the studs further apart.

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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby George Kaplan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:57 pm

First off I am now a member of the club (which should be demonstrated by the fact that I am now able to post on this forum again).

Due to some unavoidable delays in other projects I have only now just got around to thinking about my Matchless. I probably wont be able to actually start doing anything until January as I still have some other stuff that I need to finish off but I am at least ready to start working out a plan. (the planning is also driven by the fact that I currently have a hand injury in my dominant hand which puts me out of action as far as wielding spanners for a few weeks)

To recap, I have a pile of parts which when assembled should resemble a Matchless G3 or AJS 16.

My intention is to build something that resembles a G3C. Because I don't have an original matching numbers bike I don't feel that I need to be precious about ruining an original bike.

My inspiration is the AJS Model 16 in Sammy Millers museum which I liked the look of when I visited there a couple of years ago.

The first port of call was to date my chassis which according to the online club frame dating service is a 1958 G3LS. I knew it was a G3LS but was curious about the year. It was sold to me as a 1959 so it was close but no cigar! Given my intentions the exact year of the frame is not critical.

Now I need to know more about the engines and gearbox that I have.

One set of crankcases look to be from a WD model. These will be moved on to someone with an appropriate WD machine/WD project.

Here is a reminder of those.

Matchless WD(464x284).jpg


The engine that came with the chassis seems to be a mix of parts. The crankcases have a "C" suffix which might suggest a "Competition" model but I was sceptical as the stampings are a bit haphazard. However I was pointed (by the helpful folks on here) to the fact that the competition cases have a different stud spacing. I checked the fit of the iron barrel that came with the cases and sure enough the 2 have stud holes that don't match up. Also the stud spacing on these cases is different to the WD cases that I have.

Here is the number from those cases.

Matchless C(403x257).jpg


Lastly I acquired another engine back in April. I did this because I am missing lots of small engine parts and some of my existing parts are in poor condition. This engine, I am reliably informed, came from a working bike. It is a 350 bottom end and a 500 top end. Also I believe it is of AJS origin. The numbers on this engine are, however, a bit of a mystery to me.

Here is that one.

AJS Number(516x347).jpg


I have a gearbox which I had no idea about but dave16mct has suggested that its from a 1946 model 18 (500cc). Would it be suitable for my intended purposes?

The number on the box is G2C46



On the website it states that there is a "certificate of authenticity" available or a "dating certificate". At the moment I don't need these per se although at some point I will need a dating certificate in the future. At the moment I just want to positively identify the later 2 crankcases that I have plus confirm dave16mct's verdict on the box and establish if its suitable for my needs. Is there a service available that does this for me?


Once I have sorted out what engines I have and if I need another gearbox or not I am toying with 2 different plans of attack.

Plan 1 is to quickly put together a complete running bike with what I have in the style of an "LS". It shouldn't be too hard as for most of the missing bits I have suitable replacements on a temporary measure to get it completed. Then it should be simple to get a V5 and then I can pull it apart and turn it into something that I am aiming for.

Plan 2 is to skip the first part of plan 1 and go straight to building it in the style I am aiming for. What I am not sure about with this plan is would it be harder to get a dating certificate and V5 for a bike that looks like a "C" but has an LS chassis number?

What are the thoughts on here?

Thanks,

John
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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby SPRIDDLER » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:13 pm

Interesting project.

Quick reply............
George Kaplan wrote:.......according to the online club frame dating service is a 1958 G3LS. I knew it was a G3LS but was curious about the year. It was sold to me as a 1959

The next year's models started in September of the previous year (after the factory shut down) so it's just possible that a post Sept '58 frame could have left the works as a '59 finished machine. Rob H who is better informed may wish to correct me on that.

Dave is spot on; the gearbox is a '46 CP type.
In Christians Archive here:

http://archives.jampot.dk/technical/Tra ... umbers.pdf

you will find the G2C46 number (1946 Model 18 500cc AJS) thus:

Burman CP numbers.JPG


There is some useful info in the following link re. WD Matchless engine numbers:

http://www.matchlesswd.co.uk/engine-and-frame-numbers/

Your /G3LC WD crankcase appears to have evidence of the two pins which would/may originally have secured the plate with the WD contract/engine number. The faint letter 'B' to the top left of the number denotes that the bike was fitted with Bowden cables/levers.

George Kaplan wrote:What I am not sure about with this plan is would it be harder to get a dating certificate and V5 for a bike that looks like a "C" but has an LS chassis number?

The frame must be identified by the Dating Officer as a 1958 G3LS from the club's factory records and no matter what other bits you use to make it 'look' like a 'C' the dating certificate and therefore the V5 will always identify it as a 1958 G3LS. It's non-negotiable in order for the club to have the DVLA's authority to be recognised to issue dating certificates. It's not for me to say but I don't think that making it look like a 'C' would necessarily bar it from having a dating certificate as a G3LS provided that the main components (which I think are); gearbox, frame, engine, forks are compatible (that is to say 'typical' of the period) with the the frame. Only an inspection by the Dating Officer can confirm this when the bike is finished. There is chapter and verse about what comprises an acceptable 'Reconstructed Vehicle' on the Gov't (DVLA or VOSA?) website.
Maybe your Plan 1 is best to get it registered, then as you said, you can change it to look like whatever you want.
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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby clive » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:34 am

If you do not have documents for the frame, with the assistance of the dating officer you can apply for an age related number. The DVLA will send someone to check the vehicle who will be pleasant and ask questions about the bike as it is inspected. What DVLA wish to establish is that the bike is made predominantly from old parts not new ones so your answers need to confirm that (they understand wheels may have been rebuilt). Make sure you leave the frame number clearly readable and not heavily painted. I got away with a Suzuki twin leading shoe brake on my project as it looks the part.
If you have papers then the Dating Officer will arrange for a local member to visit and confirm frame engine and gearbox numbers.
In both cases the bike must be fully built and all there before the inspection.
It's probably sensible to get the frame checked before you start as the registration documents will say either AJS or Matchless depending on what the dating certificate (via the factory records) establishes. Not sure how DVLA would deal with it if you have an AJS frame fully badged as a Matchless. If it is a comp frame there are gaps in the clubs records.
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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby Rob Harknett » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:50 am

Regading the comment about a 58 bike brought said to be a 59. 59 model year would have started production Sept 1st 1958 ending Aug 31st 1959. The frame number should confirm the model year The same applies with todays new cars etc. So I guess every one reading this know what year their car is ????? So you all refer to the reg. no. date. For all intents and proposes that's the year of your car. If you had your car dated by its VIN number, it could be 1/2 years older. This causes a lot of confusion. If buying parts for your car you by parts based on the reg. no. date, same for M o T etc. I have brought car parts on reg. no. date and found they don't fit, as the car was older. I once had a new head gasket put on a Lada car, dated on the reg. no. date. 5 miles down the road the engine squealed and rattled like a box of bolts. VIN number confirmed the car was actually made 2 years earlier than the reg. no. date. The head gasket used intended for a car of the reg. no. date blocked oil ways to the OHC shaft. So remember when dating. On the frame number it will be the model year not the reg. date. You need to know the correct model year to buy correct parts.

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Re: Intro and what have I got

Postby George Kaplan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:39 pm

Hello folks, thanks for the helpful comments.

I understand about the model year coming out in the previous year as I have a 1939 bike that was first registered in October 1938.

I also get the dating certificate and age related reg thing as I have previously registered vehicles that had been missing from the DVLA database.

I guess the 2 questions that I had/have were/are

1. Is it easier to get a dating certificate for a G3LS that looks like a G3LS rather than one that looks like a G3C despite its identity being a G3LS? I think the answer is that it might be easier if it looks like the bike that its numbers identify it as.

2. Is it possibe to do a simple search of the clubs archive based on engine number rather than chassis number? Similar to the On-line frame dating and identification but for the 350/500 AJS engine that I have?

Final question is does anyone know if there is a source for the competition alloy barrels to fit my "C" bottom end?

Thanks,

John

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