Yep, I've been through that! Clear as mud, isn't it?
I really like Janet's suggestion of posting photos & measurments of the various clutch arrangements. That will help us all puzzle out exactly how it's supposed to fit together. I will do this next time I have it to bits. Which on current performance won't be long...
For example, I have no idea why you'd need a "loose" plate without tangs (like the one Janet posted). Maybe a 1-week-only random-clutch-special. Who knows?
I feel less bad now about putting mine back together with the pack reversed. a) it fits b) it works.
Well, so far anyway.
Scrambler clutch basket?
- clanger9
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:38 am
- Location: Chester, UK
Re: Scrambler clutch basket?
1989 Moto Morini Dart 350
1993 Ducati 750SS
1993 Ducati 750SS
-
- Member
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:45 pm
- Location: MIDDLESEX UK
Re: Scrambler clutch basket?
To add to the debate and to try to answer some of the questions on measurements, I have looked at a couple of clutches/baskets I have accumulated over the years.
I have taken measurements on 4 clutches… 2 complete and 2 baskets with clutch centres only.
For reference :-
Clutch 1 is a complete 250 CS scrambler clutch… taken off a bike I have owned for 40 years
Clutch 2 is a complete early simplex clutch.
Clutch 3 is an unknown duplex chain wheel, basket and centre.
Clutch 4 is an unknown duplex chain wheel, basket and centre.
I have never compared them side by side so I was surprised to see that there were 2 different depths of clutch basket on the duplex clutches even though the centres were the same.
The measurements I have taken… not engineering but the best I can do are:-
Measurement 1 – Centre depth to the basket
Measurement 2 – Centre depth to the shoulder – see picture… this is a feature of the simplex clutches only. There are no shoulders on the duplex clutch centres.
Measurement 3 – Overall depth of basket… an external measurement from the inside edge of the chain wheel to the outer edge of the clutch basket.
Measurement 4 – Overall depth of the slots in the basket.
Measurement 5 – The thickness of the thick inner single sided friction plate including the friction material. Note there is no chamfer on either of these plates.
Measurement 1:- Clutch 1 – 1 11/16â€, Clutch 2 – 1 7/16â€, Clutch 3 – 1 9/16â€, Clutch 4 – 1 9/16â€.
Measurement 2:- Clutch 1 – 1 5/16â€, Clutch 2 – 1 1/16â€, Clutch 3 – na, Clutch 4 – na.
Measurement 3:- Clutch 1 – 1 7/8â€, Clutch 2 – 1 5/8â€, Clutch 3 – 1 7/8â€, Clutch 4 – 2 1/8â€.
Measurement 4:- Clutch 1 – 1 3/16â€, Clutch 2 – 15/16â€, Clutch 3 – 15/16â€, Clutch 4 – 1 3/16â€.
Measurement 5:- Clutch 1 – 7/32â€, Clutch 2 – 7/32â€, Clutch 3 – na, Clutch 4 – naâ€.
From this it looks like there are 2 different types of basket for the duplex clutch, one is the same as the early simplex clutch and the other is the same as the CS 250 clutch.
While I have used imperial measurements it would appear that I have some slightly different measurements to Steve? Steve, is the clutch you are measuring duplex?
I have also taken a couple of pictures of the 4 clutches and the order of the plates on Clutch 1 and Clutch 2 which appear to be correct from the workshop manual apart from the fact that there is no chamfer on the thick inner plate on the standard simplex clutch. As the maximum number of attachments is 3 I will add the order of the plates in a separate post.
Any questions fire away…
Regards,
John
I have taken measurements on 4 clutches… 2 complete and 2 baskets with clutch centres only.
For reference :-
Clutch 1 is a complete 250 CS scrambler clutch… taken off a bike I have owned for 40 years
Clutch 2 is a complete early simplex clutch.
Clutch 3 is an unknown duplex chain wheel, basket and centre.
Clutch 4 is an unknown duplex chain wheel, basket and centre.
I have never compared them side by side so I was surprised to see that there were 2 different depths of clutch basket on the duplex clutches even though the centres were the same.
The measurements I have taken… not engineering but the best I can do are:-
Measurement 1 – Centre depth to the basket
Measurement 2 – Centre depth to the shoulder – see picture… this is a feature of the simplex clutches only. There are no shoulders on the duplex clutch centres.
Measurement 3 – Overall depth of basket… an external measurement from the inside edge of the chain wheel to the outer edge of the clutch basket.
Measurement 4 – Overall depth of the slots in the basket.
Measurement 5 – The thickness of the thick inner single sided friction plate including the friction material. Note there is no chamfer on either of these plates.
Measurement 1:- Clutch 1 – 1 11/16â€, Clutch 2 – 1 7/16â€, Clutch 3 – 1 9/16â€, Clutch 4 – 1 9/16â€.
Measurement 2:- Clutch 1 – 1 5/16â€, Clutch 2 – 1 1/16â€, Clutch 3 – na, Clutch 4 – na.
Measurement 3:- Clutch 1 – 1 7/8â€, Clutch 2 – 1 5/8â€, Clutch 3 – 1 7/8â€, Clutch 4 – 2 1/8â€.
Measurement 4:- Clutch 1 – 1 3/16â€, Clutch 2 – 15/16â€, Clutch 3 – 15/16â€, Clutch 4 – 1 3/16â€.
Measurement 5:- Clutch 1 – 7/32â€, Clutch 2 – 7/32â€, Clutch 3 – na, Clutch 4 – naâ€.
From this it looks like there are 2 different types of basket for the duplex clutch, one is the same as the early simplex clutch and the other is the same as the CS 250 clutch.
While I have used imperial measurements it would appear that I have some slightly different measurements to Steve? Steve, is the clutch you are measuring duplex?
I have also taken a couple of pictures of the 4 clutches and the order of the plates on Clutch 1 and Clutch 2 which appear to be correct from the workshop manual apart from the fact that there is no chamfer on the thick inner plate on the standard simplex clutch. As the maximum number of attachments is 3 I will add the order of the plates in a separate post.
Any questions fire away…
Regards,
John
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
- Member
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:45 pm
- Location: MIDDLESEX UK
Re: Scrambler clutch basket?
Further pictures of the order of the plates.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- Janet
- Member
- Posts: 4147
- Joined: Mon Jan 01, 1996 12:00 am
- Location: EAST YORKSHIRE UK
Re: Scrambler clutch basket?
John, that is absolutely marvellous. From your information and photos, I have clutch 3 on my 1964 CSR. Thank you very much for your time and effort.
-
- Member
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 11:35 pm
- Location: LINCOLNSHIRE UK
Re: Scrambler clutch basket?
Hi John good stuff! my mesurments are from a duplex clutch. on thing for sure is that the simplex clutch is quite different to the duplex job.
My measurements were very basic with a ruler against the parts, i am unsure if one or two millimeters makes much difference.
I get confused with imperial, it was only metric being taught when i went to school
I think i will stick my comments to the G5 section as there's little variation as only about 2500 were made.
Cheers
My measurements were very basic with a ruler against the parts, i am unsure if one or two millimeters makes much difference.
I get confused with imperial, it was only metric being taught when i went to school
I think i will stick my comments to the G5 section as there's little variation as only about 2500 were made.
Cheers
- clanger9
- Posts: 1165
- Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:38 am
- Location: Chester, UK
Re: Scrambler clutch basket?
Fascinating, thank you John!
There is no "shoulder" on the clutch centre on my (duplex) clutch, which matches what you've seen. I think the design is a bit odd for the 250 CSR: the innermost (driven) plate clatters against the base of the basket when the clutch is disengaged and has left a wear mark there. If there's no shoulder (i.e. all duplex clutches), then the innermost plate probably ought to be a driving plate (like a 350), not a driven one (like a 250).
My clutch appears to be a random mish-mash of bits. So, genuinely as it left the factory then.
From your photos, I appear to have a clutch #3 basket (duplex, shallow basket), but with a clutch #1 pack (9 plates: 4 driving, 5 driven).
Now I understand what the extra-thick inner clutch plate in my clutch pack is for: it is supposed to rest on the shoulders of the clutch centre! Mystery solved??
I will take some measurements and detailed photos to confirm at the next opportunity...
There is no "shoulder" on the clutch centre on my (duplex) clutch, which matches what you've seen. I think the design is a bit odd for the 250 CSR: the innermost (driven) plate clatters against the base of the basket when the clutch is disengaged and has left a wear mark there. If there's no shoulder (i.e. all duplex clutches), then the innermost plate probably ought to be a driving plate (like a 350), not a driven one (like a 250).
My clutch appears to be a random mish-mash of bits. So, genuinely as it left the factory then.
From your photos, I appear to have a clutch #3 basket (duplex, shallow basket), but with a clutch #1 pack (9 plates: 4 driving, 5 driven).
Now I understand what the extra-thick inner clutch plate in my clutch pack is for: it is supposed to rest on the shoulders of the clutch centre! Mystery solved??
I will take some measurements and detailed photos to confirm at the next opportunity...
1989 Moto Morini Dart 350
1993 Ducati 750SS
1993 Ducati 750SS